wow!!

Vegetarian i can understand (even though many are hypocritical and still eat fish), but vegan? Can't see any point unless for medical reasons (in which case it wouldn't really be actual veganism).

What do you mean no point? It's an ethical thing, not to mention it's helping me keep my weight down. I'm also enjoying it thoroughly.

I don't see the "ethical" adventage of becoming a vegan.

i suspect people have differing reasons, but you may want to read up on things like dairy product and egg production, such what typically becomes of the male offspring.

I know, which would not mean that everything is wrong with eating eggs or using dairy-products just because of that. Which a lot of people (including the creator of this journal) seems to believe.

I simply believe that choosing to eat these things negatively implicates the animal. I would eat eggs if I knew they were from a chicken raised in good conditions because an egg is just a monthly passage made by the hen and becomes useless to her afterwards. I don't eat them now because egg-laying hens are raised in terrible, terrible conditions and I don't want to support that with my dollar. Dairy products requires stealing milk from a baby calf, which I just feel is wrong. I wouldn't take a woman's baby away and start sucking on her teat. But if you like all that shit, like I said, I'm not judging anyone, this is just my personal reasoning.

Just a simple question: If everyone in the world stopped eating eggs right now, what do you think would happen to those hens who are currently being mistreated for eggs? Do you think that "batch" of animals would get it better? Or could they be sacrificed in the case that things would change in the future?

Well, firstly, that's not going to happen. People aren't going to suddenly stop eating all the eggs on the earth, so arguing a hypothetical situation is a waste of time. If people gradually decreased their intake of eggs, however, until the point that eggs were no longer eaten by our society, those chickens would probably just be used as meat. What are you trying to prove?

That's why i said "if".

I wanted to see if you were a hypocrite or not, since the most logical thing that would happen to the current hens if everyone suddenly stopped eating eggs would not be pleast, so i asked if you would be willing to sacrifice them for the greater good, even though that (obviously) wouldn't make the world better for them.

My point would have been that no matter what one does, as the current reality is, no choice can really be made without in some way going against ones own "rules". We obviously didn't get far enough for my point to become relevant though.

Maybe i should ask you what you are trying to prove, but i won't, as i agreed with you some minutes ago to let eachother be. (Just trying to tie up some loose ends if possible)

^ kaitycuddle ofc

If you are genuinely confused and not trying to troll, I don't mind discussing it.
Every single thing humans do is most likely negatively impacting an animal, yes. But your vote is in your dollar. If you continue to pay for factory farmed meat, eggs and milk, you are directly supporting the industry. That's about all I can do to help the issue aside from sneaking into the farm and freeing all of the animals. You seem to have an "all or nothing" point of view, where you think that if I can't directly change the system on my own, there's no point. But I disagree. If everyone felt like they couldn't make a change on their own, literally there would have been no political movements because no one would have spoke out and protested anything.

"...but your vote is in your dollar. If you continue to pay for factory farmed meat, eggs and milk, you are directly supporting the industry"

Which is where the "are you willing to sacrifice the current batch of hens"-thingy and the "do the chinese workers get a raise if we all stop buying the clothes they make or do they lose their jobs"-part come in. It's not just black and white. It's not just as easy as it feels like you are trying to make it look like.

"If everyone felt like they couldn't make a change on their own, literally there would have been no political movements because no one would have spoke out and protested anything."

I agree, i don't see the relevancy of that line of text though, i can't recall ever saying that anything about "just being one person without much power" or such.

(From a more "outside" pov, it's kind of interesting how we both feel like the other thinks too much in black & white or "all or nothing". If i understood your meaning of "all or nothing" correctly that is.)

Sometimes it feels like you are not even replying to me, because you keep trying to put words/ideas/similar in my mouth..

uh...i did use the "chinese workers"-example somewhere, didn't i? *checks* O.o

"Which is where the "are you willing to sacrifice the current batch of hens"-thingy and the "do the chinese workers get a raise if we all stop buying the clothes they make or do they lose their jobs"-part come in. It's not just black and white. It's not just as easy as it feels like you are trying to make it look like."

That's why fair trade would be ideal. Buying things where the profit directly goes to the producer, not some high company exploiting workers. Yes, they would lose jobs, but in the long run it would prevent more people from being exploited. I never said it was black and white, I specifically told you that everything we do is going to have a negative impact on something. That's why it is about MINIMIZING THE SUFFERING. You seem to think that these issues are going to be resolved over night and suddenly all the chinese workers are going to be out of jobs or all the hens are going to be no longer needed for eggs. It doesn't work like that.

"I agree, i don't see the relevancy of that line of text though, i can't recall ever saying that anything about "just being one person without much power" or such."

Probably because I'm still trying to figure out your point. What is it you are trying to prove exactly? That animals aren't equal to humans? If that's the case we might as well be arguing about religion and this conversation is a complete waste of time.

"That's why fair trade would be ideal."

Indeed. Which is why i buy fair trade if applieable or if my wallet allows.

"Probably because I'm still trying to figure out your point. What is it you are trying to prove exactly? That animals aren't equal to humans? If that's the case we might as well be arguing about religion and this conversation is a complete waste of time."

That animals aren't equal to humans is one of the points, even if it's more complicated than just that. What part of religion? There's a lot to religion but if you mean faith in a god, the answer would be ridiciously simple, but yea, religious discussions usually are kind of useless, most often because they have to go against reason to even have faith, but yea. With the risk of adding a log to the fire: Do you believe in a god or anything similar to it?

... Not really, but I'm open minded to the idea.

So am i, the day someone produces a single piece of actual evidence of such a thing existing.

Soo....are we done here now? I mean, since we obviously both disagree on the vegan issue (and all around it) and we seem to miss eachothers points..heh..

Yeah, I'd say there's nothing further to discuss. It's all just a matter of opinion.

:3

*shrugs* i figure what's deemed to be morally wrong is down to the individual, so long as they aren't being dicks about it, or stepping outside the law somehow. i'm not a vegetarian or a vegan, but i understand why they may not want to feel associated with issues such as veal's ties to the diary industry.

I don't see where "ethics" come into the conversation.

Those who eat meat are referred to as pescetarians, not vegetarians. Two different things, though some vegetarians dont seem to recognize that. However, most vegetarians I have met do not eat fish and are knowledgeable of their choices and what they mean. Two different worlds between you and me I guess.

I've met a lot of both...a lot more of the hypocrits, but that's how it always is, no?

And I have met more who are not hypocritical rather than hypocrits. THat s my point. You have met more of one variety and I have met more of their opposite.

I understood that, my reply might have been badly composed, what i meant was kinda that "Yes, iv'e of course also met non-hypocritical people, but (in my experience) one meets more of the assholes" Lucky you ;3

I personally can't stand the vegetarian or vegan lifestyle (for myself!) so I am sticking with my meats. I find it silly to be a vegan for only moral reasons. I feel like people should do it if they really feel it will help them out.

But, if it's a must to go by moral reasons only, then that's fine, as LONG as they aren't making people who eat meat feel bad or try to change them. :/ THAT I can't stand.

I'm not really the type to push it on others (my boyfriend is a huge meat eater) but I understand people who are really passionate about it. It's the same as seeing slavery or people getting shot in the streets. It's seeing animals as being equal to humans with thoughts and feelings, not a commodity. But obviously if anyone else doesn't see it as that then radical vegans won't change them.

I'm glad you don't. :3

I hope those people support animal welfare instead of animal rights, though. I wanna have my pets as family, thank yoooou.

yea....i wish i could see all living beings as equal, but i rather go with the hard truth than a comfortable lie. Eating meat just for the meat is as useless as hunting just for the sport, but thinking that somehow you are gaining "points" in morality for not eating meat at all is both incorrect and focusing on the wrong things. If you want to be "moral", why not try to help starving people in the world who don't even come near to having the possibility to be a "picky eater" or something similar. Everything has a limit of course (i don't advocate abusing any animal), but caring about your own species first and other ones later is not immoral, it's natural. I hope i don't come off as rude or something, but i'm getting tired of people trying to be the "good guy" and then end up focusing on the exact wrong thing.

Maybe i'm overreacting a bit, and for that i'm sorry, but if you make a journal like this, people will comment, right? :3

TL:DR

The issue of slavery and/or someone being shot in the street is not even on the same map as if we should eat meat or not.

Is it really that different though? We used to think that it was perfectly OKAY and NATURAL to make slaves out of Africans, and it used to be perfectly OKAY and NATURAL for women to not have any rights. Speciesism is just the same as sexism and racism. I'm not doing this for 'morality points.' And actually, a vegan diet is actually way more beneficial for helping starving children. ""If all the grain currently fed to livestock in the United States were consumed directly by people, the number of people who could be fed would be nearly 800 million," (http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories.....-livestock-eat) The truth of the matter is we are giving 70% of the grain produced to feed animals. Grain that could be fed to, say, the starving people you speak of.
I don't want to come off rude, but I hear this a lot and it's really frustrating. You don't advocate abusing any animal but literally the food you eat is being abused. Why is it okay to abuse and slaughter some animals but if you kill a dog or eat a cat, people go crazy? Just some food for thought.

"We used to think that it was perfectly OKAY and NATURAL to make slaves out of Africans, and it used to be perfectly OKAY and NATURAL for women to not have any rights"

So what if we used to think that? That still dealt with our own species (even if some for some time didn't see africans as humans, i know but thats another topic).

"Speciesism is just the same as sexism and racism"

How the hell is it even close to being the same? If the real world was like the "furry" world where all species had a similar type of human intelligence and anatomies and such, then yes, but that's not how it is right now.

"I'm not doing this for 'morality points.'"

Then why are you doing it? Because you think it is wrong? Then it is about morality.

"The truth of the matter is we are giving 70% of the grain produced to feed animals. Grain that could be fed to, say, the starving people you speak of. "

...if i understood that correctly, why not give the 70% of the grain to the animals, then give the meat from the animals AND the 30% of grain still left to the starving people? Make meat-soup and bread instead of just bread? And also, what about all the milk we get from animals? We make cheese, butter a.s.o. What about wool from sheep? (Not for food ofc, but still). It's not all black and white (not speaking bout the wool x3). Aka. We don't just get meat from the animals...or did i misunderstand something?

I wouldn't say anything if someone ate a cat or a dog either, otherwise i'd be a fucking hypocrite, unless it would be MY cat or dog, the same would go for any animal that was mine.

"You don't advocate abusing any animal but literally the food you eat is being abused. Why is it okay to abuse and slaughter some animals but if you kill a dog or eat a cat, people go crazy"

*Sigh* While you go and put someone like me at the same level of "worth" as a cow (which i find very disrespectful), i will go and think about how i can make humans have it better first. Oh, and shouldn't you speak with the wolves too about eating meat?...since they obviously are very inconsiderate when they hunt deer and whatever, no? I mean, if things are as black and white as "we are all worth the same", then it must also be as black and white as "we all have the same responsibilities", no matter our level or type of intelligence.

Also, why start with dairy-animals and such? Why not start to work against humans being killed? Especially since humans are not even killed for food. Especially since you ramble on about animals being abused when they are slaughtered. Of course it would be best if we could get meat or such in another way than to "kill" a living being, but that time is either very far away or will never come. You are starting in the wrong end. Start with humans and cases were animals are obviously getting abused instead of what we eat. You can't "fix" everything at once.

The world would not be a better place if everyone started treating all species equally (also, what is your stance on insects? Microscopic even?), the world would be a better place if we, as humans, tried to first make the world a better place for humans so that there then would be more people around to help making this a better place for everyone (or any at all). You can't help someone else if you have not even enough for yourself.

Also, don't misunderstand me, i get a dreadful feeling when i say what i said, i would love nothing more than to agree with you, but i don't lie or delude myself.

"So what if we used to think that? That still dealt with our own species (even if some for some time didn't see africans as humans, i know but thats another topic)."
It's not another topic though. We used to believe that Africans were completely inferior to Caucasians and we would exploit them, the same way we view animals as lower and exploit them. The only difference is that we've learned that racism is fucking disgusting but have yet to recognize that speciesism is just as fucked.

"How the hell is it even close to being the same? If the real world was like the "furry" world where all species had a similar type of human intelligence and anatomies and such, then yes, but that's not how it is right now."

Animals of course aren't as intelligent as human beings but that doesn't mean they don't express love or affection, fear or pain or even the basic need to want to LIVE. I'm not saying everyone should become vegan because that's not realistic. But don't tell me that the pain of suffering of one species is more important the pain and suffering of another.

"Then why are you doing it? Because you think it is wrong? Then it is about morality."

Yes, it's about morality, but the implication of points suggests that the whole purpose of me doing it is to try to win myself some good karma or something. I'm not doing it to appear morally superior than anyone else (as the whole point of my initial journal was completely unrelated to morals) but because I PERSONALLY don't agree with torturing and then killing an animal all for 5 minutes of my gratification.

"...if i understood that correctly, why not give the 70% of the grain to the animals, then give the meat from the animals AND the 30% of grain still left to the starving people? Make meat-soup and bread instead of just bread? And also, what about all the milk we get from animals? We make cheese, butter a.s.o. What about wool from sheep? (Not for food ofc, but still). It's not all black and white (not speaking bout the wool x3). Aka. We don't just get meat from the animals...or did i misunderstand something?"

It takes up to 13 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of meat. How is that in any way efficient?

"I wouldn't say anything if someone ate a cat or a dog either, otherwise i'd be a fucking hypocrite, unless it would be MY cat or dog, the same would go for any animal that was mine."

An animal is not a belonging. That's like saying "I don't care if those kids get beat up and abused because it's not my child, and thus, not my problem".

"*Sigh* While you go and put someone like me at the same level of "worth" as a cow (which i find very disrespectful), i will go and think about how i can make humans have it better first. Oh, and shouldn't you speak with the wolves too about eating meat?...since they obviously are very inconsiderate when they hunt deer and whatever, no? I mean, if things are as black and white as "we are all worth the same", then it must also be as black and white as "we all have the same responsibilities", no matter our level or type of intelligence. "

My whole point is that no LIFE should be valued more than anothers. I don't see myself as any better than a cow the same way I don't see myself as any better than you or anyone else. We may have higher intelligence than animals, but like I said, that doesn't mean they deserve to be exploited. If you're so offended by being compared to a cow, why are you comparing yourself to a wolf? They are carnivores and don't have the luxury of humans being able to go to a grocery store or being able to farm their own food. Humans on the other hand are not carnivores. Looking at our digestive tract, teeth and nails could easily tell you that. We don't HAVE to survive off of meat, unlike a wolf.

"Also, why start with dairy-animals and such? Why not start to work against humans being killed? Especially since humans are not even killed for food. Especially since you ramble on about animals being abused when they are slaughtered. Of course it would be best if we could get meat or such in another way than to "kill" a living being, but that time is either very far away or will never come. You are starting in the wrong end. Start with humans and cases were animals are obviously getting abused instead of what we eat. You can't "fix" everything at once."

Sorry, what are you doing to prevent humans from being killed? How are you supporting human welfare? When you say we can't fix everything at once, you are absolutely right. Obviously there are more social issues than just animal welfare, but why is it that just because I support animal welfare that means I can't possibly support human welfare as well? I'm dealing with one issue by not eating meat. I'm not some radical activist who is able to fly to Africa and abolish gangs and save child soldiers. I would love to, but I can't do that. Would I love to help end human exploitation as well? Of-fucking-course, but I can't single-handedly bring world peace.

"But don't tell me that the pain of suffering of one species is more important the pain and suffering of another."

I find it most important that people i care about don't suffer and secondly that humans don't suffer. If that means i have to choose one over another, so be it. Does that make me a bad person? (not that i care that much)

"...but because I PERSONALLY don't agree with torturing and then killing an animal all for 5 minutes of my gratification."
Because all animals who are killed for food are tortured and/or suffers and all who eat meat are cold, heartless advocaters of animal abuse? No? Make up your mind..

"It takes up to 13 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of meat. How is that in any way efficient?"
I see, but on the other hand, it's all about balance.


"An animal is not a belonging. That's like saying "I don't care if those kids get beat up and abused because it's not my child, and thus, not my problem"."

Now you are just being silly, you know that's not what i mean and besides, it would not be the same thing since it firstly would be about someone of the same species...how is it that this needs to be explained btw? And i say MY as in "the one(s) i care and feel for". If my kids were also abused btw, i would have to focus on that first, why would i focus on someone elses kids?.

"My whole point is that no LIFE should be valued more than anothers."
I agree, it "should not", but as the reality is now, would not help anyone with a mindset like that.

"If you're so offended by being compared to a cow, why are you comparing yourself to a wolf?"

I compared humans with wolves for the sake of killing animals for food, nothing else. The point was that i'm offended that you value someone of your same species as much (or as little) as someone of another species at the starting point.

"Sorry, what are you doing to prevent humans from being killed? How are you supporting human welfare? When you say we can't fix everything at once, you are absolutely right. Obviously there are more social issues than just animal welfare, but why is it that just because I support animal welfare that means I can't possibly support human welfare as well? I'm dealing with one issue by not eating meat. I'm not some radical activist who is able to fly to Africa and abolish gangs and save child soldiers. I would love to, but I can't do that. Would I love to help end human exploitation as well? Of-fucking-course, but I can't single-handedly bring world peace."

Missing the point again. I never said you couldn't possibly do both. I never said you didn't care about anything else. And i would never go to africa to save child-soldiers unless i was sure i had helped myself first (aka. you don't invite a homeless person to sleep in a broken bed, you fix the bed first). My point is that one should first see to all humans getting food, rather than if it's right or wrong to kill an animal for it.

I still don't think you answered my question about your stance on insects? Do you swat flies or mosquito? If you do, do you do it for food or just because they annoy you? (Silly question of course, i do hope you get my point. Category: Morality)

(Idk...this "discussion" is seeming to go downwards pretty quickly. I don't know if there's a misunderstanding somewhere or if you are just angry/irritated. I'm gonna make a guess that you think i care less about animals than i actually do, because i care very much, but when it comes to certain things, i prioitize my own species, if that makes me "bad", so be it, at least i don't live in a dream and if you can't see how obviously logical it is to favor one's own species, it is beyond my skills to explain it further, if it is even possible)

Look, my point here is that I, personally, don't feel comfortable with taking another animals life just because I think it tastes good. I'm not trying to judge people who eat meat, my god I ate meat just a month ago so by no means am I the definition of a perfect vegan. I think the whole system of factory farming is corrupt and unnecessary and a lot more fucked up than people realize. Am I perfect? No, of course not, but I'm passionate about this issue and that's why I'm trying to make you understand my perspective. I'm doing what I can to support the issues that I feel need to be addressed, and veganism as I have learned benefits animal welfare, environmental welfare and aids in fixing food and water shortages. If you would have read that article, you should see that it takes a hell of a lot more food to raise an animal that produces a lot less food, so if we were to take our attention away from factory farming, the saved food could easily feed millions upon millions of others.

I actually try my best to avoid killing insects. Every time I see one in my house I try to release it outside or leave it be. But yeah, if a mosquito is biting me, I swat it instinctively. Which is pretty fucked because when you think about it I just took somethings life just because it was a minor annoyance. :/ Like I said, I'm not perfect, but my whole point is that I want to minimize suffering as much as possible.

"Look, my point here is that I, personally, don't feel comfortable with taking another animals life just because I think it tastes good."

*Sigh* Missing the point again. "Just" because of food, not just because it tastes good.


"I think the whole system of factory farming is corrupt and unnecessary and a lot more fucked up than people realize."

I agree, but that's a whole other issue than however animals are worth as much as humans or not.



"I actually try my best to avoid killing insects. Every time I see one in my house I try to release it outside or leave it be."

Of course, so do i. Not because i consider myself to have murdered someone if i kill a fly, but because i have no reason to kill an insect if i can easily let it out.


"But yeah, if a mosquito is biting me, I swat it instinctively. Which is pretty fucked because when you think about it I just took somethings life just because it was a minor annoyance. :/ Like I said, I'm not perfect, but my whole point is that I want to minimize suffering as much as possible."

My point is that no matter how much or little you care, you have to put things into proportions and you have to prioritize, like we agreed on earlier, one can of course not fucking do everything at once, but becoming vegan because of how some animals are treated and thinking it is fucked up to kill a mosquito for being a minor annoyance is the wrong way to prioritize, putting things into bigger or smaller proportions compared to what they actually are and also kind of devaluing the whole human species.

Buy meat and eggs from (local?) farms that treat their animals in a for you, satisfactory fashion.
Put up nets instead of having second thoughts about swatting a mosquito... or something.
Or is it just me that is so mentally instable that i can't care about every living thing and have to prioritize my own species and the ones i care about?

"Like I said, I'm not perfect, but my whole point is that I want to minimize suffering as much as possible."
But how does it make the world better if you could ease the suffering of some animals?
For you?
For humans?
For some cosmical force?
In what way? With our type of intelligence? How would the animal understand it then?
There's a lot of questions..

... Yes, I must be missing your point because I have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, I don't like eating animals because I feel as though it is unnecessary and so I don't want to contribute to it. Again, you can do whatever you want, I can't stop you.

Us arguing about whether or not humans are equal to animals is completely pointless because it's obviously a matter of opinion of which we don't share.

What I don't understand is why you're trying to tell me how to view species and live my life, honestly. If I'm doing my best to minimize the harm done to other creatures how it is negatively impacting you one single bit? What difference to you does my perspective on human vs. animal worth make?
""Like I said, I'm not perfect, but my whole point is that I want to minimize suffering as much as possible."
But how does it make the world better if you could ease the suffering of some animals?
For you?
For humans?
For some cosmical force?
In what way? With our type of intelligence? How would the animal understand it then?
There's a lot of questions.."

I don't really understand your question. How ISN'T it? How is minimizing my contribution to animal abuse/slaughter as much as possible, which in turn positively effects the environment and our depleting food shortages, not making 'the world a better place' (although that completely exaggerates my impact on the system). I know I'm not going to change the world by myself and I probably won't even have done enough in my lifetime to make a difference, but it feels better on my conscience knowing that I'm taking at least some personal responsibility. ONCE again, I do not care whether you choose to follow my lifestyle or whether or not you view animals as being on the same tier as humans, so I'm not sure why you seem so defensive.

You don't know for certain if any of that would actually become.
If you don't care, why did you not just say so and we would not have wasted all this time on a "discussion"?
When i think about it, i don't really care that much what you think either, just that i feel devalued when someone puts me at the same "worth" as all other animals, just because of being alive. Which brings another question to mind: What about plants? Aren't they alive too? Where goes the line? What about all the living things that die when grains are harvested (except for the grains ofc, if one even counts them as living)? How about when fields are plowed? A.s.o.

Putting all that aside, i understand and agree what you want, but i do not agree at all with your reasons why and your actions toward what you want.

I've said all along that it doesn't matter whether or not you choose to eat meat or whatever, that's not my place to say, but if you say that my being vegan is pointless, then yes I am going to defend my reasoning in hopes of shedding a little light and knowledge on the topic. If you find that devaluing, I'm sorry but that's not my problem. The whole point I am trying to make is that everything is equal.
Plants are absolutely alive, but they have no nervous system. They don't feel pain. Yes, things die when everything is harvested, of course. It's impossible to live without causing some harm, but like I said, it's about minimizing it. Obviously the world would be a much more stable place if humans weren't here harvesting it for all that it's worth. I'm not going to commit suicide so that my global footprint is as small as possible. I'm doing WHAT I CAN.

Speciesism is just the same as sexism and racism.

A human being has the comprehension to understand slavery, oppression, and exploitation. A cow or a pig does not suffer as long as you provide them adequate sustenance, space, and socialization with their own kind. An enslaved POC has the same intelligence as their captors and suffers emotionally from the knowledge that they lack the freedom and opportunities of those captors. There is no evidence that a chicken grasps concepts such as oppression or privilege.

The issue though is that they aren't getting adequate sustenance. They're being placed in pens not large enough for them to move or be social. Of course they don't fully understand the issue, but that doesn't effect that it causes them suffering and is extremely unnatural for them to be raised in this punishing conditions. It doesn't take intelligence to feel pain and to suffer.

wow my grammar in this post is fucked LMAO but I hope you see my point. If these animals were being raised in natural conditions and treated humanely at the very least, I would feel better about it. I personally still don't want to take it's life, but would be much more comfortable knowing that its endured minimal suffering. In the factory farming system we have, it's nearly impossible to raise animals without treating them like objects and caring less about their welfare and more about profit.

Aye, then you and i agree. Except for all species having the same worth, which is sad imo.

Yes, that's a matter of animal welfare. Very few people would disagree with the concept that animals can suffer, and there's a very lovely push toward humane farming and making the products of it more available to underprivileged people.

The problem is comparing racism and sexism to the abuse of livestock. Even if the argument appears tidy on the surface, using it essentially trivializes the struggles of and dehumanizes women and POC. It puts their worth on the same level as a cow, an animal which does not have the same intelligence, complexity, and potential as a human.

"Yes, that's a matter of animal welfare. Very few people would disagree with the concept that animals can suffer, and there's a very lovely push toward humane farming and making the products of it more available to underprivileged people.

The problem is comparing racism and sexism to the abuse of livestock. Even if the argument appears tidy on the surface, using it essentially trivializes the struggles of and dehumanizes women and POC. It puts their worth on the same level as a cow, an animal which does not have the same intelligence, complexity, and potential as a human. "

Exactly my point. Not that a cow is less worth because it is not as "intelligent" (or because it has a different type of intelligence) though, but because the cow is a different species from us, a different lifeform. Or something like that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very much opposed to racism and I'm a very passionate feminist. I'm not comparing them as a means to lessen the suffering caused by either of those social injustices but rather as a way to compare an unpopular opinion (veganism) to a popular one (that racism and sexism are bad). Each issue exploits, abuses or controls one group of sentient being. We just need to remember that animals are indeed a sentient being that don't deserve to be swept aside as 'unimportant'.

"I'm not comparing them as a means to lessen the suffering caused by either of those social injustices but rather as a way to compare an unpopular opinion (veganism) to a popular one (that racism and sexism are bad)."

So you want people to pity you then?

"Each issue exploits, abuses or controls one group of sentient being. We just need to remember that animals are indeed a sentient being that don't deserve to be swept aside as 'unimportant'."

Except that one issue exploits, abuses and/or controls a group of sentinent beings belonging to the same species as us, beings with the same type of intelligence as us, who thinks and feels in the same way as us... What do you think an abused slave in africa would feel if she/he heard what you were saying? Probably nothing positive. As for how the animal would feel hearing what i've said (supposing it could even understand that), nothing we know about animals today points toward them feeling and thinking in the same way or concept as we do.

Or to oversimplify it: No other animal value other species as high as their own by default, and as far as we know, they might not even think in those kind of ways, so why should we value other species as high as us by default? Because we can grasp the concept? A concept that (as far as we know) WE created? Or what?

... how... what? How is that implying in any way that I want pity? LOL. I want fucking awareness on the topic. I don't expect to get patted on the back, that's not why I'm doing this.
Wow alright... honestly this conversation is going no where and I feel like I'm talking in circles around hypothetical situations. How about this: you keep doing whatever you're doing, and I keep doing whatever I'm doing ;)

Wierd...just when i though we where actually going somewhere again..hmm.. i don't know if you couldn't answer my question or if you really don't feel like it's going anywhere, but ok, i'll countinue whatever i'm doing and you'll countinue with yours. Since we are just speaking on the internet there is a high chance we have somehow missed something anyway, you know, since one can't read the other persons body language or mood, if that makes sense...

Except that one issue exploits, abuses and/or controls a group of sentinent beings belonging to the same species as us, beings with the same type of intelligence as us, who thinks and feels in the same way as us... What do you think an abused slave in africa would feel if she/he heard what you were saying? Probably nothing positive. As for how the animal would feel hearing what i've said (supposing it could even understand that), nothing we know about animals today points toward them feeling and thinking in the same way or concept as we do.

Going somewhere? To me it sounded extremely redundant. What kind of question is that, 'what would a slave think?' Obviously they would be upset, because the last thing I can imagine anyone would care about while they're being oppressed is about something else being oppressed. Did I say animal exploitation is worse than human exploitation? No, ONCE agaaainn (getting bored of saying this) I believe they are both issues that need to be addressed. Obviously animals would not react to the situation because they lack the intelligence. Are you trying to prove to me that animals aren't as intelligent as humans? Because I'm pretty sure I've stated that already. I know they have a different mental capacity. Just because animals don't understand it does that mean we should do it? Uh, well, no. At least not in my opinion, as I have yet again stated a billion times.

"Just because animals don't understand it does that mean we should do it?"

Nobody said we should do it just because of that. It's no wonder we aren't getting anywhere when you twist everything like that. And yea, i'm getting extremely bored of trying to explain myself to. (I'm also tired of being devalued as a human being just because i can grasp the concept, but that i can take)

In-deed.

"The issue though is that they aren't getting adequate sustenance."
Indeed, which is not a logical reason for not eating meat or eggs just because of that. (It's like clotches being made by underpaid workers in china, if we stopped "supporting" the companies by stopping to buy the shirts, the workers would not get paid at all. It's sad, but that's how it is, at least for the moment)

"Of course they don't fully understand the issue, but that doesn't effect that it causes them suffering and is extremely unnatural for them to be raised in this punishing conditions."
Whichs would mean that humans suffer more, no?

"It doesn't take intelligence to feel pain and to suffer."
Of course not, but...(see the answer above)

""Speciesism is just the same as sexism and racism."

"A human being has the comprehension to understand slavery, oppression, and exploitation. A cow or a pig does not suffer as long as you provide them adequate sustenance, space, and socialization with their own kind. An enslaved POC has the same intelligence as their captors and suffers emotionally from the knowledge that they lack the freedom and opportunities of those captors. There is no evidence that a chicken grasps concepts such as oppression or privilege.""

That's an even better way to put it.

A low-meat diet will be a lot easier to stick with than a strict vegan diet. Your body needs proteins and not all of them are easily available through veggies alone. You can get most of the way there by eating dishes that have a combination of grains and legumes, but you'll still be missing a bit. It's up to you to decide what you're happy with eating, just don't let purists try to tell you you're a bad person for taking care of your body's needs.

Beyond that, keep an eye on supplementing B12, Calcium, Iron (especially during 'shark week'), and Vitamin D.

Have you ever heard of someone with a protein deficiency? Didn't think so, because it's unheard of in this society unless it's a someone completely malnourished and underfed. I agree that some meat can be beneficial in the diet, but it's definitely not necessary for most of us.
I am taking b12 supplements and a multivitamin at the moment to make sure I'm getting all the nutrients my body requires.

I have actually, yes. A number of people I know have attempted regrettably naive vegetarian or vegan diets with disastrous nutritional consequences, to the point where their doctors informed them that they could have easily died from malnutrition if they continued with their diets as-is. And these were people who were, from a calorie standpoint, well fed to the point of even gaining weight.

Humans have evolved for millions of years to thrive on an omnivorous diet. Removing an entire category of food from that diet isn't impossible, but it has its risks and is not something to be taken lightly.

I'm not here to tell you that going vegan or vegetarian is a bad idea. I don't personally believe it's a bad idea (nor do I put much weight into the notion that it's a good idea). It's just not an easy thing to do right.

I don't really believe that humans are 100% intended to be herbivores (as the whole idea of needing b12 supplements despite the idea that this diet is totally natural has struck me as being weird). I've heard of one or two people on the internet being recommended by doctors to start eating some form of animal product again because they weren't following it properly, but I've never ever heard of anyone being told they could DIE if they didn't eat meat-- and I've done my share of research. So that strikes me as very strange and I'm wondering if the doctor had some kind of bias.

I can't be vegan, I like eggs and dairy products too much, also, most of the animals here are well kept and cared for, and I try to buy home farmed eggs.

If you eat cheese and dairy there's no problem with proteins at all (I've been a vegetarian most of my life, and even when I was training for a sport I didn't eat meat and beat any of the other girls in that sport). You have to keep an eye open on what you eat, though.

I don't really have a problem with B12, Calcium and Vit D, but that may be cause I eat eggs and milk... Iron is a problem, but has always been in my family, regardless if we eat meat or not, I just take a multi-vitamin supplement (with a lot of iron) when I'm on the "shark week"

i'm not vegan/vegetarian but my gf doesn't eat red meat and is prolly going to stop eating meat all together. i'm thinking about giving up on red meat for starters too but... i can't do it yet :'D but i guess at some point i have to because when we live together it's pointless to cook meals just for myself (tho i do eat everything my gf cooks because she's good cook but i still can't give up on red meat yet xD)

also i love tofu and "soy meat". when we eat tacos, my gf includes soy meat and it just tastes like regular meat but is vegetarian !

I'd recommend even giving yourself a week-long challenge of going without red meat! It's not as daunting as cutting it out completely, but it lets you see how well you do on it and whether or not it's sustainable (or if ya wanna be really ambitious, try a week without meat completely ;) )
As for the fake meats, I honestly haven't really tried any hahaha. I'm kind of weary of soy myself but I would like to give it a shot in the future if I ever get some kind of meat craving. Daiya makes vegan cheese though and apparently that's super good so I'm STOKED.

A week would not really help you see whether it is sustainable or not. It takes a significant time for our body to readjust, so sustainability will show only over several weeks.

That said, I know it is sustainable, just... Not my cup of tea, as you can see below :)

I think it depends on the individual. Obviously a month would be more beneficial for determining how you react, but a lot of people would find a month to be too daunting. Personally, when I first went vegetarian last April, it took me about a week to get used to the lifestyle. :) But it's different for everyone I suppose!

I am pretty sure it can happen quicker only in starved people :)
Remember, we're talking sustainability here -- that is, not feeling how the body would adjust to the new diet, but how it would carry on.

Like... Not seeing if you can sprint a hundred yards in the new shoes, but how you'd feel after hitting a ten miles mark :)

Oh, you're talking more in terms of physical sustainability, and I'm talking mental. I adjusted to the LIFESTYLE of it, but yes it takes a much longer time to see how it will effect you physiologically.

*nods* Yeah, was talking physical. Never even thought someone would need to see if they can sustain it mentally.

that's how my gf stopped eating red meat, she was challenged to not eat it for a month and then it stuck with her. i'm going to try that myself sometime, when ever i feel comfortable doing it ! and my gf did it mostly for health reasons, she said that her biggest motivation for it wasn't ethical reasons tho.

soy meat is really good, it's alternative if you ever get craving ! i've tried some vegan cheeses and i liked some of them, the only way to find out if you like it is to try it !

Yeah, it's totally easier to commit to it for a week or a month than to immediately go into like "ok this is the last piece of meat I am ever eating EVER" haha. I'd really recommend giving it a shot! :D You might be pleasantly surprised. Good luck if that's what you decide, be it red meat or all meat in general!

yep, and i would love to have more healthier diet. i don't think im gonna give up on some animal products tho, i like milk and eggs too much for example >< i like soy milk too, but if i have it too much i get upset stomach.

Hey, whatever works best for you! I can't even begin to describe how much better I feel since I started eating healthy (even while I consumed animal products). Cutting out that sugar and junk will increase your energy by ten-fold.

I'm vegetarian, have been almost all my life. I wanted to eat meat around 4 years ago, and ate till 2 years ago, but that's all.

A cheap recipe I do (and my boyfriend loves) is:
Rice with vegetables:
Ingredients:
1 Eggplant
1 onion
1 pepper (red looks better, but yellow and green work too)
1 can of corn grains
1 can of peas or any other legume
2-3 small tomatoes or a big tomato or 1 can of tomatoes.
2 cups rice

You cut the onion and pepper in small cubes and saute them (I dunno if its the right term, you put a little oil at the pot (I use a 4l one, probably would work well in a 2l too) and leave it till the onion gets golden), add the tomatoes chopped in cubes. Chop the eggplant in cubes around half an inch big and fry it till the borders are golden (Fry the eggplant inmediately after you cut it to prevent bitterness). Add the eggplant and the rice to the pot, add 5 cups water and the canned corn and legumes, leave the lid on the pot. Add salt and pepper on taste and check if the rice is cooked, might need a little more water.

That sounds really good! I've never heard of 'corn grain's though. Do you mean just regular canned corn?
I've also never had eggplant before but I've been dying to try it... maybe I'll pick these ingredients up tonight. :)

Maybe your regular canned corn is what we call "corn grains" if you ask for canned corn here you'll get a horrible corn paste and I was trying to prevent that.
Eggplant has a meaty-creamy texture to it that is awesome, you just have to watch out for the bitterness. Try to get the ones with smooth skin that arent too big, maybe around 15 cm long.
Here's a page that explains a lot about eggplant cooking: http://www.finecooking.com/articles.....erfection.aspx (I haven't tried that stuff yet, I go mostly from personal experience when cooking)

ahhh you are a saint thank you for that info!
That's so weird that you get paste there, though? I've never heard of that hahah.

*Butts in because I am a butt* Eggplant is aka aubergine if you know that name instead x3

It's a dark purple teardrop shaped veg that is pretty good curried :D

I know what eggplants are hehe that's what they're called here. I've never heard of them being called Aubergine though, that's kind of neat!
Currying it sounds like a splendid idea. :)

Went veg a few years ago for personal reasons. It's made exactly no improvement in my health, but everyone's different. Went vegan for a month as a challenge. Likewise exactly no health improvements. Went back to plain old veg. My wife eats literally nothing but fast food and looks amazing. Ergo, personal reasons. Excellent that you've had health benefits though. :>

Were you eating pretty healthy or were you a junk-food vegan? ;)
But yeah haha like I said, I really believe some people just thrive better on certain diets. DANG YOUR WIFE.

I could have been a junk food meat-eater and not changed anything. Easy peasy.

Of course I eat some sweets. But I eat better than my beautiful, sexy wife. While vegan I ate nothing but the purest, most healthy foods. It was kind of deranged and since I did not benefit, I quit. Life is short and money is tight.

I kind of have rotten genes. I probably shouldn't be. And yet here we are. O.o

Welp, unfortunately in the nutrition world there's no one-fits-all! But I hope you find health doing whatever it is you choose to do. :3

It's cool. My decisions are mine. Yours should be yours. :)

VEGETABLES IS WHAT FOOD EATS!

I prefer a balanced diet (some meat, some veggies, some carbs) myself. But nowt wrong with mostly veggies long as you get your amino acids somewhere (dairy, eggs, etc).

Quinoa provides all 9 essential amino acids, not to mention dark green leafy veggies, nuts and grains are loaded too, so I'm good. ;)

Dark leafy greens + shredded carrots + brockles + garlic = spectacular stirfry. :9

oh fuck yeah

Oh, and chopped shrooms, too. :9

i actually don't like cooked mushrooms for some reason, but I'm on a huge kick of canned button mushrooms. freakin delish with a little cracked pepper

I've just eaten whatever and burned it up at work (mechanic), so a 'diet' has never really been of interest, but hey 5lbs ? - you go girl !

I did switch soda/pop for water last-half of last year, and I don't have any #'s, but dang if I didn't feel better & more energetic from it !

ugh honestly completely removing soda from the diet is like the BEST thing you can do for your health, meat or no meat, so congrats on that. :)

I'm not a vegetarian or vegan, but I don't always cook with meat, and some of the things I make come out vegetarian (or almost) anyway.
This: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11192938/ is one of my favorite vegan meals.
There's also this I've made: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11173120/ No recipe, but I think its clear whats in it just by looking at the picture (plus drizzle of olive oil). And if you still decide to eat cheese, I put cheese on this too.

yyUUUUUMM! I love those little bowtie pastas. Awesome ideas, thanks :D

You're welcome :D

Nope. I am on a ketogenic for over a year already.

... And goodness. I can understand vegetarian, but vegan always was a total overkill in my mind :)

keto is pretty great for weightloss, I did that for a couple months. I lost a few pounds but the prospect of never really being able to go back to eating a normal amount of carbs without gaining it all back scared me too much.
tbh I used to think vegan was overkill too but looking at the dairy industry and its effects on the body, eating meat and not eating any animal by products makes more sense than not even eating meat. :P

I don't do it for weight loss. It's a side effect at best.
I don't think I'll gain it back if I switch back to carbs -- I can bet you get a pretty high amount, and from what I read, you lose weight, too.
What are the effects of dairy industry on the body by the by?

I consume a lot of cream, cheese and fermented milk products. (No yogurt, though. I just don't like it).

I only lose it because my body has switched to running off carbohydrates though, whereas your body now runs off of fat. If you suddenly reintroduce a lot of carbs back intro your diet, your body no longer knows how to handle them and you will retain a ton of water and gain back a considerable amount unfortunately. If you reintroduce them really slowly it minimizes the effects, though.

The dairy industry is no better to cows than farming them for meat. They forcefully seminate the cow, then once she gives birth, immediately snatch the calf away and if it's male, lock it up in a cage small enough so their bones and muscles can't fully develop and use that calf for veal. If it's female, they repeat the cycle and they hook them up to these giant machines that pump out all of their milk, pus and blood and put hormone into their feed so that they produce tons of more milk than they normally would out in their natural environment.

In terms of health effects, our bodies aren't actually developed to be able to drink milk, hence why a lot of us are lactose intolerant. That's because we are literally the only species on the planet to drink milk after weaning, let alone the milk of an entirely different species. Some people have adapted to milk though (mostly only in milk-heavy continents, in others where milk is less common, you'll see a MUCH higher rate of lactose intolerance) and so it doesn't give them noticeable negative effects. Milk is known to be terrible for acne and bloating among other things like weight-gain too, but it really depends on the individual.

Hm. I am pretty sure it works differently with fermented milk products, and I also recall studies showing that acne is in most part related to yeast (i.e., bread) consumption, not milk.

One of the main ways to treat cystic acne is to remove dairy from the diet. When I increased my dairy intake I actually noticed my skin got really bad, that's why I kind of looked into it. Although you're totally right, wheat isn't good for our bodies either. Ideally I would like to cut out gluten too but ONE STEP AT A TIME!

*laughs* Well, I dunno about wheat. It was shown that non-yeast made bread doesn't have this effect.

Also, gluten is only bad if you specifically have sensitivity to it -- but that's true about lots of things.

Eh, idk. I've done a lot of research on wheat and bread and everything and it's all pretty hard on the body. Apparently like 80% of people never get diagnosed as having celiac disease, so I think it's one of those things you'd have to cut out and see how your body reacts.

I dunno. Coeliac makes you pretty damn sensitive to it, like, you know, getting even a loaf of bread a day would cause serious complications -- much like all autoimmune disorders, it can be considered almost qualitative reaction, not quantitative.

not necessarily, there are a lot of more subtle symptoms like fatigue, irritability and headaches. not everybody experiences the extreme ones!

Timing :)
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conte.....v.msu049.short

The lack of Scott Pilgrim references saddens me.

*whispers* i also have super powers

I am now happy again.

also, good job!

<3 thanks :3

I am pescatararian/vegetarian. I have to eat fish once a week to suit the family, but otherwise I am vegetarian. The opportunities when I have moved out I have been totally veggie, but it's just not completely achievable while my salary is still flimsy XD

I love how people are trying to put their own angst about your diet on ya |: It's amazing how threatened people seem to get when people mention alternative life styles and ethical choices. It's like "YOU CAN'T MAKE ME DO IT YOU'RE STUPID" when all you're doing is saying you are getting personal benefit from it. Uggggghhh XD

I'd like to try a vegan diet just to see if I could! I don't know how well I'd manage o:

Weirdly enough I'm spending less money on food now that I'm vegan for some reason? I guess it's probably because rice/pasta/bread/beans and lentils are all super cheap. Although I do miss my canned tuna :c
I know right? hahah, it's really pretty amusing, but it gives me an opportunity to educate them on the truth of the matter. ;)

I was totally terrified of going vegan too but I was just kind of like "fuck it" and gave it a go. A week is a really short span of time, so it wasn't too scary. Almost immediately after I cut out the dairy/eggs though my skin completely cleared up and the bloating in my belly went away, so I'm pretty excited to see how my body reacts in the longterm. You should try it and see how ya feel!

Vegetables here can be a tad expensive, well at least more so than I realised at first. I thought all the fruit and veg should be dirt cheap but it doesn't -feel- that way. It is odd!

I will share with you a tasty vegan meal that can serve about 4! Requires a little bit of time but is well worth it, even my carnivore family wolf it down ;D

Stuffed Marrow
Prep time: 10 mins
Cook time: 45- 1 hour

You will need:
1 Marrow
500g Vegetarian mince (quorn mince works well)
Handful of mushrooms
1 yellow pepper
1 onion
1 small tin of sweetcorn
1 tin of chopped tomatos
Handful of sundried tomatoes
Tomato puree (optional)
4 garlic cloves
Salt / Pepper / Chilli flakes to season

---

1) Preheat the oven to 180 degrees C (350F ish)
2)Chop the marrow into quarters, and scoop out the soft puply centre where the pips are. Discard the filling, and place the quarters on a baking tray hollow side up. You may need to use baking foil as little wedges to keep them from falling over.
3) Chop up the rest of the ingredients into small cubes.

This next section is for frying, and you are aiming for a slowish cooking so all the flavours really mingle - like a chilli! Should take abooouuut 30 minutes.
4) Heat up some oil and fry the garlic, onion, sundried tomatoes. Season with salt / pepper/ chilli flakes (a generous pinch!). Fry for 5 minutes when all the flavours are released (should be easy to smell)
5) Add the mushrooms and pepper and fry for a further 5 minutes.
6) Add the mince and cook through.
7) When the mince is cooked add the chopped tomatoes and sweetcorn, and reduce the heat just so flavours infuse.
8) When you are happy that everything is cooked, scoop the mixture evenly into the hollows of the marrow. Cook in the over for 25-30 minutes!

Annnnnnd you're done XD

It is SO full of flavour it is unbelieveable. It's very filling, totally vegan and has so much goodness in!!

omg that sounds WONDERFUL. I've never had marrow but I'll have to add that to my to-try list :D thanks so much!!!!

IT IS YUM TOWN

<33 I hope you like it if x3 If you try it lemme know!

for sure!!

I love bacon, I'm a omnivore XD

i like simulated bacon bits, i'm a vegan :B

I like bacon, cheese steaks, burgers, chicken, salmon, sausage, now I'm hungry x.x

i like my animals alive tyvm

So do I XD not judging you. Just I like meat and veggie's taint giving up either

agh I'm so jealous! I have trouble sticking to just a vegetarian diet, usually by my own poor planning... but I applaud you, besides all the ethical reasons you have pointed out there are also really good environmental reasons to go vegan.

I really like vegetarian indian and chinese food, most of them can be altered to be vegan too which rocks. I loooove lentil curry with tomatoes and kale in it. Its pretty much just sauteed onions, gara masala/curry powder, salt, then crushed tomatoes and precooked lentils and kale mixed in. And a little soy milk if wanted. I don't even eat it with rice or anything, just on its own. Lentils are a really good source of protein and kale has lots of iron so good for getting those basic nutrients.

If you haven't checked out Isa Chandra Moskowitz (Post-Punk Kitchen, Make it Vegan) she has some really good recipes, though they are a bit decadent (she uses a lot of cashew cream). Raw. Vegan. Not Gross on Tastemade is also pretty good, it could be modified to be cooked more if its too much raw food.

Oh hells yes, the environmental reasons are a huge part of my reasoning as well. :)
Also ALL OF THAT FOOD SOUNDS GOOD. I've just started getting into international food and UGH delish. I just bought kale from a local farmer yesterday and I had it in a smoothie... yummy green goodness. I'm dying to try some curries too...
I'll check those sites out!!! I would love to eventually do a raw till 4 diet, but baby steps haha. If you ever decide you really wanna go vegan or even just vegetarian, I can share the kinds of stuff I eat (on a financially challenged budget haha), although I'm still learning myself. thanks love <3

You do what you like, I'm glad it's working out for you.
I know I could use more changes myself in my own diet.

Thankyou for the support! Wish you well, hopefully you can make some yummy, healthy adjustments to your diet. :) You'll feel better, I guarantee it.

Hmm, interesting. I have the problem of gaining weight easily. I don't get a lot of exercise, but I'm trying to change that. Doesn't help that obesity runs in my family. >.=.<

Some people just have slower metabolisms :c Lowering your intake of grains/carbs is usually pretty effective, and if not try limiting your dairy/meat intake. I'd recommend trying both just to see how your body reacts. Honestly diets are just one of those things that require trial and error.

Yeah, it's going to be hard now that I'm back on campus. The front desk sells junk food, and I tend to graze while surfing the internet. I've already fallen back into a couple bad habits. Here's hoping I've caught myself. I plan on running up and down 5 flights of stairs in my building twice in a row two times a day. If I can also cut out snacking between meals, I should be back to a reasonable weight. I was last weighed at 231 lbs and 5'11". I am technically obese even if my large frame hides it. My target is to get back down to 210, and maybe lower if possible. The thing is I won't be able to alter my lifestyle too drastically. (i.e. going vegan), because I WILL fail if I do.

When I lived on campus, I pretty much just ate everything that didn't contain bread or was high in carbs. I would snack on deli meat a lot or some tuna with mayo. I know what you mean though, if you just commit to something really restrictive all at once, it can be extremely overwhelming and kind of sets you up for failure. Ease into whatever changes you feel you wanna make, even if it means cutting out soda and only drinking water or snacking on veggies instead of junkfood. :) Good luck!

Mmhmm. Thanks for the encouragement!

Anytime buddy ol pal!!

Good on ya! I am considering a change in my diet as well and am planning a change to ovo-lacto vegetarianism (that is to say a vegetarian who does not eat meat, but does still consume dairy products and eggs) in the next few days. My reasons are not activism, but rather health reasons. Depending on how things go, I may decide to allow limited wild meats as well (at which point I will no longer be truly a vegetarian).

Time will tell.

I found that when I went vegetarian, I increased my dairy intake a lot and that actually had a more negative impact on my health, so just be careful about that (unless your body handles dairy well) :) Hopefully it works out for you!! Congrats on focusing on your health, dat shit is important yo

Oh I have no intention of INCREASING my consumption, but in the event I do my body will be fine, as it does indeed handle dairy products just fine. Rather my reasoning to allow for dairy is to allow myself access to a readily available source of proteins. Principally, I will be consuming yogurts as well as milk. In terms of eggs, I included them to make planning easier, as it is in a great many dishes and can also supply nutrients that I require.

Good for you! I was vegan for a few months but found it really difficult to stick to, especially with eating out and things. And I really missed chocolate! I'm now doing my best to be vegetarian, although I can be slack with rennet and gelatine.

I do feel a hypocrite though, as I care about animal welfare but am still harming animals by eating dairy. But I suppose doing a little bit is better than doing nothing. I only also buy free range eggs, which isn't ideal but at least shows there's a market for more ethical products. Tbh I hate the way we treat animals - I reckon in 100 years time people will look back on factory farming with horror.

One thing I found about going vegan is it is more of a lifestyle than vegetarianism. There are vegan fairs, vegan cafés and vegan groups, mostly frequented by left wing activist types, at least in my area. When I went vegan my vegan friends tried to persuade me to get involved with these things - but I was too busy trying to work out how to make condensed milk out of soya milk. Overall it's a lot more difficult and radical than vegetarianism, and I couldn't stick it. But I admire anyone who can.

And I second Post Punk Kitchen. I love the vegan lasagne.

Eating out is the WORST. I feel like such an annoyance asking all those questions. :( Although vegan chocolate is a thing! I don't know if you like dark chocolate, but I got a huge chunk of it at bulk barn the other day without any dairy products. :)
Honestly, don't feel too bad. Like you said, at least you're doing something. I don't want anyone to completely jeopardize their sanity. But yeah, the fact that there are even organic products and free-range and grassfed beef and such indicates that people are starting to acknowledge that factory farming is a problem. I'm sure the market for those things will boom sooner than later.

You're totally right though. A definite lifestyle. I'm not prepared to be super radical or anything yet though, it's really overwhelming. When you're VEGAN vegan, it seems like your whole life needs to change. Vegan clothes, vegan shampoo, vegan beauty products, vegan everything. I totally respect these people but at the moment I don't have the resources to really go ALL OUT. I'm more focused on just adjusting to the diet first. Like you said, a little bit is better than nothing! Congrats on doing what you can though and educating yourself.

Also. Yes. Looking at Post Punk Kitchen now and I AM SO HUNGRY.

I'm a pollotarian for allergy reasons. You know, if that counts for anything. I've been a pollotarian for almost three years and I've been gluten free for two, for allergy purposes. I wish I could be vegan.

Hey, better than nothing haha. I wish I could go gluten free, so there!

Heartland makes some great noodles! And Udi's makes some great bread. Glutino makes some awesome Oreos. That's about it. Udi's makes great everything.

YUM, YUM and YUM. I might just have to investigate that.

Please do! I don't know that the Oreos are vegan like the normal ones. I know the bread is vegan. If you try the bread get the whole grain one, it tastes better and has a better mouth feel.

I'm a vegetarian, have been for.. goodness, almost 10 years now? (I believe I started when I was 13/14.)

I like it pretty well. Makes me happy knowing I can make a difference, even if it's a tiny one. :3

FAV RECIPES AAAARE

Essentially any roasted veggies with some olive oil and spices (basil, apple cider vinegar is really good, salt and pepper.. <3)

Ooh, there's this asparagus cashew pilaf I made at work! (I'm the cook for the vegetarian/vegan station) If you like, I can get you the exact recipe, but it involves putting olive oil and some spices on the asparagus, setting it on some foil, and putting that in the oven for a bit.

I make some very good fried rice, both veggie and vegan, and I'd be happy to copy some recipes and give them to you! c:

Wow! 10 years, that's amazing :)
I LOVE making roasted veggies. Spicy roasted cauliflower, brussel sprouts, sweet potato fries and even cabbage is surprisingly delicious! I've heard a lot about apple cider vinegar.. I think I should give that a shot!
I LOVE asparagus, I would really appreciate that recipe :)
Also I've been dying to have fried rice but the recipes I saw all include egg. Do you just do everything without the egg or do you use a substitute? :) Would love the recipe for that too, thanks so much!!!

I came here just to wish Kaity "good for you" with her dietary change.

DID NOT EXPECT SO MUCH TEXT.

I am not sure why people need to add their two cents to what she decides to eat. It's only affecting her.

Do I really agree with Veganism? No, it's not my deal.

likewise it's not my deal to gripe to Kaity about how I feel about Veganism.

She's eating what makes her feel good.

Her feeling good makes me feel good.

How about we all feel good?

I SECOND THE NOTION OF FEELING GOOD

Do you like Tofu? This one makes for an easy treat:

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Tofu Pudding:
1 package of Silken Tofu (unflavored)
1 cup of Sugar
1 teaspoon of Vanilla extract
2 tablespoons of Cocoa Powder

Throw all this into a processor, blend until smooth, and chill in the fridge. Serve with optional fruit and berries~

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I really enjoyed eating Vegan. I did so with friends after High-school for a few years and it taught me to cook, grocery shop, and be conscious of product ingredients. Vegan/vegetarian alternative products can be pricey, but everything else can is cheap if bought wholesale. Especially vegetables when they are in season (winter squashes right now are great; baked spaghetti squash, yum!).
Stir-fries and pasta dishes make for fantastic meal staples. The ingredients and styles can always be changed up so they never seem redundant. Oh, and hummus for snacks! I don't buy nearly as much chickpeas as I used too, but that one's my favorite protein bean.

From my experience I don't like tofu, but I've only ever tried the firm kind and it was a little too spongey for me. But pudding.. CAN'T go wrong with pudding. That actually sound really easy to make too!! Thanks so much for the suggestions!

vegan fuck yes.

YEE BUDDY