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Is it possible to be civil in the furry fandom?
10 years ago
You probably just immediately answered the titular question, probably with something like "yes duh" or maybe even "no people are dicks", it's a question I have really been asking myself lately.
A more accurate portrayal of the question is "Can one be civil in the furry fandom without also getting a lot of weird baggage from other people?" and to be honest I am getting closer and closer to the "no" lately.
Now for the past few years now I've been the staff member of something or another, and took the effort of being personable and approachable. Since my fursuit stuff became known if not popular I've continued to make an effort t be approachable to help people or chat if they want.
It wasn't until recently that I realized how fucked up some of my interactions with people have been sometimes. For instance I like to joke about my friendship with Deo, she is a big burly mechanic and I am an academic, that's basic sitcom rules. But with little jokes comes perpetually people asking me two things 1. Are Deo and I dating? or 2. Asking me to talk to her for others or basically act as her hound/messenger.
I find the latter to be far more detestable than the former, as you can probably guess from my previous journals. 1 I can let pass, people see the jokes often enough and think we are together, whatever. 2 is basically asking me to be someone's keeper and I hate it.
But as I noticed that people are kinda weird about asking me about Deo and to follow up for them, I thought about other baggage i've had to deal with. I've had a lot of people flip out on me in the past by doing staff work, making it far more personal than it is like assuming I have a problem with them because they didn't get a position, or because they had some action done, and largely it's because these people expected through a basic civil discussion that I owed them placement, or priority in staff action, or something like that. Severe nepotism aside the fact that basic civil discussion means something seems weird to me.
Recently I started using my fandom skype and facebook again. It's not hard to hold a basic conversation if someone wants to ask about fursuits or say hello, but in the course of a few days I'm already skeeved out and kinda wanting to leave the fandom for a while and just stick to cons.
I've had people using my character without asking in fanfiction stuff, something I always find rather invasive. I had someone randomly decide to denote me as a relative without asking...
All of this because I bothered to be available for basic non-personal conversation. The type of nonsense you could say around a watercooler.
I don't particularly want to shut down and not talk to people anymore. I like talking with people, helping with fursuits, etc. I don't want to be cold and stand offish...but all of this is getting so damn tiresome and I don't have the energy to constantly deal with people that take "did you have a nice day" as carte blanche of we are now best friends.
I'm not sure if this is something other people deal with or not, perhaps I'm really just growing out of the fandom, but i'm becoming more and more convinced that there's no room for civil acquaintances in the fandom, it's either we're all best friends, or you're a hermit...
A more accurate portrayal of the question is "Can one be civil in the furry fandom without also getting a lot of weird baggage from other people?" and to be honest I am getting closer and closer to the "no" lately.
Now for the past few years now I've been the staff member of something or another, and took the effort of being personable and approachable. Since my fursuit stuff became known if not popular I've continued to make an effort t be approachable to help people or chat if they want.
It wasn't until recently that I realized how fucked up some of my interactions with people have been sometimes. For instance I like to joke about my friendship with Deo, she is a big burly mechanic and I am an academic, that's basic sitcom rules. But with little jokes comes perpetually people asking me two things 1. Are Deo and I dating? or 2. Asking me to talk to her for others or basically act as her hound/messenger.
I find the latter to be far more detestable than the former, as you can probably guess from my previous journals. 1 I can let pass, people see the jokes often enough and think we are together, whatever. 2 is basically asking me to be someone's keeper and I hate it.
But as I noticed that people are kinda weird about asking me about Deo and to follow up for them, I thought about other baggage i've had to deal with. I've had a lot of people flip out on me in the past by doing staff work, making it far more personal than it is like assuming I have a problem with them because they didn't get a position, or because they had some action done, and largely it's because these people expected through a basic civil discussion that I owed them placement, or priority in staff action, or something like that. Severe nepotism aside the fact that basic civil discussion means something seems weird to me.
Recently I started using my fandom skype and facebook again. It's not hard to hold a basic conversation if someone wants to ask about fursuits or say hello, but in the course of a few days I'm already skeeved out and kinda wanting to leave the fandom for a while and just stick to cons.
I've had people using my character without asking in fanfiction stuff, something I always find rather invasive. I had someone randomly decide to denote me as a relative without asking...
All of this because I bothered to be available for basic non-personal conversation. The type of nonsense you could say around a watercooler.
I don't particularly want to shut down and not talk to people anymore. I like talking with people, helping with fursuits, etc. I don't want to be cold and stand offish...but all of this is getting so damn tiresome and I don't have the energy to constantly deal with people that take "did you have a nice day" as carte blanche of we are now best friends.
I'm not sure if this is something other people deal with or not, perhaps I'm really just growing out of the fandom, but i'm becoming more and more convinced that there's no room for civil acquaintances in the fandom, it's either we're all best friends, or you're a hermit...
It's rally driving me nuts that there's those that take things like "I liked Ant-Man" "I did too" then turn around and go "this is my furry sister now" no.
It makes a bit of sense, though. It's almost seems like when you're in the community, you're expected to jump into the intimate interactions & fandom culture immediately.
It's peculiar & a bit unsettling... even for me.
Do what you have to do.
I've yet to experience what you have, though... Probably because I'm not as involved as you are.
I'm a filthy casual. XD
It's kinda a case of "give em an inch and they take a mile" and it's really frustrating.
Sometimes I wonder if it's worse for women in the fandom, or maybe it's numbers. Not to make this a gendered thing but when I hear such stories it's usually from women rather than guys.
I know there were things like that crazy fucker that basically had a hateboner for all the OFA suiters but was particularly vicious about Kuhori and I. Going to far as to spreading lies about being my ex in a rather drastic almost adorably misinformed way.
I wonder if guys in the fandom get the same kinda weird possessive shit in different ways.
Replace 'headline' with 'journal title' and you have your answer.
No seriously there is room for it but when you are just trying to give people who are used to being outcasts some basic human respect that usually ends up translating to something more than just general kindness. I call it Meg Gryphon syndrome. Everyone calls her fat and ugly so when someone comes along who is remotely decent to her she clings to them in an unhealthy way and ultimately drives them away.
I'll be honest. I don't have a good reputation in this fandom because of the very thing you've described. But I've made an effort to change my personality; and yet it doesn't seem like people are willing to give me a shot anymore. It's as if there's an invisible barrier between the popular and "accepted" people in this fandom, and that everyone else is "other"; a force to be avoided as if they were a disease.
It saddens me. We appear to have reached a point where there's no reconciliation possible and that the status quo is pretty much popular accepted people looking down on people like me, with absolutely no way for people like me to redeem ourselves in their eyes. It's no wonder it breeds frustration, resentment, and a desire to simply just leave. If our very best isn't enough for the popular and accepted folks, what will be?
What's worse is that that sort of mentality is so often decried as "drama" and worsens peoples' opinions of us. It seems like it's hard for the popular and accepted people to remember that we're people with feelings too, and that not all of us are content to simply be outcasts. Some of us want to join "respected society", but it feels like we have to do it on our knees in order to get their attention for more than five seconds and it just makes us look "pathetic" "whiny" and "clingy" to the fandom's metaphorical blue-bloods and turns them off to opening up to us.
I mean, god forbid people you don't know want to talk to you, right? It's totally unreasonable to make new friends. They're strangers; what can they possibly offer you except "drama" and "creepiness"?
I've kept these feelings mostly between myself and my friends until now; fearing reprisal and even personal attacks. But it's not going to be a better world, or even a smaller corner of the world, until someone speaks up. So I am.
First of all I think you're projecting here. It's clear that you have had some experiences that have lead you to feel very strongly about the topic, but this sort of passion I think has caused you to be blinded to the point that Rio was making.
The topic of this journal didn't concern people doing basic actions, but rather that basic human decency and civility is often met with behavior that is too familiar, crosses boundaries, and is all together inappropriate. What Rio said was blunt but it wasn't judgmental or even insulting. She very clearly explained that the phenomena of people acting inappropriately when shown basic decency is the result of them being treated poorly so often.
All of what you said doesn't counteract that, in fact it enforces it to some extent. Painting your interactions as scrapping and begging.
You describe "popular" and "accepted" people as needing to remember that others are people with feelings, but in your passage here you are not treating them as people, you're placing an expectation on these people that just because you view them as popular you are somehow entitled to their attention. If you didn't feel somewhat entitled you wouldn't feel the need to condemn people for not giving you time or act as they are harming you in some manner.
If you view yourself as the victim then you automatically place actions and victimizing and others as victimizing. The sad truth is this often creates rifts that otherwise wouldn't be there. You start seeing things that aren't there and in turn act on them to separate yourself from those you want to get to know.
Back a bit to the topic. Is there a middle ground between civility and nothing? It seems sometimes no, because there are people that are creepy, again I'll point out that I've had people try to say I am their "furry sister" just based on saying hello. Literally I first spoke to them a few days ago. That is not appropriate, and when the line is crossed like that no one is entitled to socially coddling.
That sounds harsh, people need second chances, but that puts an unfair expectation of everyone else. You can't expect people to put up with behavior that makes them uncomfortable for the sake of others. You can't ask people to sacrifice their own mental well being because someone else continues to fail to act in an appropriate manner. This is especially te case when such behavior gets worse. Not everyone wants to get better and often these inappropriate actions are reg flags for possessive, destructive, nastier behavior later.
So no, when someone messes up they aren't entitled to a second chance, and that hurts like hell I know. It sucks and it hurts to be the one on the outside, but you can't ask someone to put themselves out there, to bleed for people that continue to scare them, to hurt them, because you and a few others messed up and want to try again.
It's not about not meeting people. You've really unfairly characterized Rio here due to your own history. If you took the time to speak with her and meet her you'd know that at cons she takes a lot of time to meet new people, show newer con goers a good safe time. You've seen one thing and immediately demonized her and exaggerated to make her out to be a bad person, you did act in a manner that wasn't entirely appropriate here, and it might suck but she doesn't have a reason to try to give you a second chance here.
On first meeting you've insulted her, and now for her to interact with you further you're asking her to open up and possibly take more insults and abuse. I don't doubt you have seen some terrible things and I will take your word that you've been trying to change for the better, but you can't ask Rio or anyone to make themselves vulnerable for you, it's not fair. They're human too, they have feelings too, and it's so unsafe and damaging to take on the burdens of others.
I hope things get better for you, and I encourage you to stop looking at it as people that are popular and not. A lot of us have gone through that popularity dance, a lot of us have been outcasts. I mean hell, I went to a different highschool each year I was in school, I know what it's like t be on the outside, but the worst thing to do is give yourself an us vs. them mentality.
No one needs to "sacrifice their mental well-being" simply to not treat people like shit. Don't be so fucking dramatic. It's NOT that hard to include people in your social groups and eventually become mutually accustomed to each other. I do it all the time. No one here seems to want to make an effort to do so, and that's not demonizing, it's stating a fact. You can call bullshit on that, but again, it doesn't change the facts.
Yeah, I get that you don't want to talk to creepy people. I get that it offends your senses. But if you don't make an effort to explain to these people what they're doing wrong in your eyes, the cycle will continue. Endlessly. Because you don't want to make an effort to change; not just yourself, but also what makes you uncomfortable. Nobody ever changed anything by making expectations and never acting.
I don't particularly WANT to have an "us vs them" mentality. I've always dislike such things. But I feel like there's really no other choice in this fandom because of the social divide. If there's going to be a wall in the middle of things, how can there possibly NOT be an "us vs them" mentality? You've just admitted to doing the same thing yourself; an "us" (the popular and accepted people) vs "them" (decent people who have made the unforgivable-in-your-eyes mistake of... Well, making a mistake). I get that not everyone wants to change, but when people do, why should that exclude them from being welcomed back in just because a few people MIGHT not want to change?
That doesn't seem wrong to you at all? People CAN change. I fucked up ENORMOUSLY with a group of friends I have two years ago. We spent a year apart and then when the next con came, we greeted each other like family and hugged, all differences and offenses forgotten. Since then we've never had a problem. People make mistakes. It's human. To wall them off is NOT human. Think on that. I'm done talking now, and don't expect a reply.
Again this isn't about never talking to anyone, and to claim that I do that is unfair and uncalled for based on your own assumption of who I am because you misinterpreted a post. This isn't about not talking to strangers at all.
Please take a moment to further read what I am saying. stop trying to put me in this "damn popular person won't talk to us lesser people" weird victimizer light.
The problem is opening up to people and getting burned. The issue is taking the time to be pleasant and talk to people and in return having people be unpleasant, creepy, and scary. I am not saying you hurt your mental well being to be decent to people, don't put words in my mouth to suit your view please. I said it hurts people's mental well-being when they DO open up. They do take the time and are decent and in turn they are treated like shit. For attempting to be civil they have people acting inappropriate. Yes that hurts people's well being because it's not just "I said something wrong and they were offended" it's things like "he stalked me and tried to find out where I live."
Some people want to improve and change, and some people don't some people get worse and just because that hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
No I don't think that once someone has opened up and a second party has done something unpleasant that they deserve the attention of the other person. It doesn't mean people can't change, it doesn't mean I'm never forgiving. It means I don't expect people to be. If someone is forgiving that is a gift and should never be an expected.
It's awesome that you could make up with your friends, it really is, but think for a moment. Those people weren't strangers. You screwed up but they knew your character to some extent. It's wonderful that friends can forgive other friends.
You don't know someone's character from short civil conversations, you can't, so when someone seriously crosses a line you have to wonder if it was a mistake or who they are, and it's unfair to ask that everyone takes that risk because you personally and people like you have good intentions.
Again not everyone does. Sometimes people are unpleasant. Sometimes they are worse than unpleasant the really grievous behavior is a red flag. Hell there's been times when I've gotten bad vibes and walked away from someone only to find later they were a pathological abuser or some such. Should I have tried to give them a second chance? Should I have said "maybe they want to improve" and allowed myself to be in a position where I could become the abuse victim?
Don't say "but that's dramatic" because it's not. Just because you are improving you can't assume you are the worst people have dealt with. The red flags can be the same and sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference between the person that made a mistake once and the person that is a danger to you.
So again, this was never about shutting people out because they are not "popular", honestly I promise you that most of the people commenting here don't even think about it. it's you bringing the difference to the table and saying that it's important. Th other people here are open, are kind, and treat people as people. Some of them they get along with, some of them they don't.
Again, I think you've been hurt. I respect that you want to change and I am going to take your word that you have, but I think that has caused you to misread the situation and act more aggressive than was necessary. I think you have a valuable point that everyone deserves basic decency, but I'm not sure you are applying it appropriately here, or perhaps we simply disagree on what a person is truly entitled to.
I think it is a good thing to be kind, and I think it absolutely is a basic expectation to show civility and talk to someone if they want it. I don't think it's fair to expect someone to continue opening up to a stranger after they have been hurt in some manner. I think it's unfair to ask someone to have faith in someone after hat faith has been broken. I think if someone has changed it is up to them to show it and while that is a hell of a thing to do and harder, it's much harder to expect someone to just accept change on faith.
Screwing up sucks. losing something sucks, I empathize with that, but I don't think it should be on the person that was made uncomfortable, or had an unpleasant experience to open themselves up for that or worse again.
I'm not saying people need to be banned or ostracized. If I have a problem with a person that's me, walling someone out of society all together is inhuman, but forcing interaction on someone that doesn't want it and doesn't feel comfortable for the sake of the other person maybe changing is also inhuman.
Go the fuck away ir quit whining. Friendship is earned not given. Those who never speak up or reach out will inevitably despite the best efforts of others find themselves "outside". Don't you dare mitigate and wave kff Fay's reaponse with "Typical." She took a hell of a lot of time abd effort to respond to you and you did not respect her time at all. Someone who doesn't value others or thier time will not be a friend to those they so casually disrespect.
I just tend to think that people need more social training and clear feedback on their behavior, because I *hope* most people aren't intending to be inappropriate or off-putting.
I don't particularly know how to avoid it without just stopping interaction with people, which would suck.
I've actually said that big cons should have panels on non-violent communication and conflict mediation.
People also tend to fume about "furries being terrible" without describing behaviors or naming names (the latter of which isn't always necessary or helpful). If the rules and standards were more specific, and there were "Do's" to accompany the "Don'ts," maybe more people would check themselves before wrecking themselves.
Maybe being vague about perpetrators isn't super helpful, but on the other hand there is value to the idea that you praise in public and admonish in private.
The cure for poor socialization is ultimately trying to teach more socialization, but it's so hard to do that on a personal level. Maybe as a con panel thing or something more official, but on a personal level I think that's asking a lot of people and that's the problem.
This didn't happen to me but I just heard a story of a well known artist that goes to cons and spends the day in the dealers den. Afterwards they just found a quiet spot to sit and draw other artists joining in. Not bothering anyone, not asking anything of anyone. Someone comes up and goes "oh wow popufurs just hanging out and no one else can join"
Sure that person could use a lesson on etiquette. They set themselves up to fail, just like I think happened in this journal thread as well. Honestly though if I were the artists I wouldn't want to be around that person and I think they'd be completely in the right to just ask the person to leave and not try to inform them of what was going on, because they shouldn't be required to possibly deal with more belligerent behavior when they did nothing in the first place.
I don't think anyone is entitled to anyone else's time as a general rule, If someone doesn't want to be around another person because of poor behavior it shouldn't be on them to try to teach this person more.
Admittedly this super sucks for someone that genuinely doesn't know, and hopefully there are people kind enough to help steer them the right way. In fact a more professional thing like a con panel or whatever to help such people would be amazing. I suppose a lot of the issue is for those that genuinely do not understand they are being unpleasant there aren't bigger resources to help, because it's a lot to ask to teach someone to be social.
My impression is the fandom is filled with a lot of "orphans" who were never properly socialized, for one reason or another. (And certainly, the furry fandom isn't alone in this respect.) People are afraid to confront others for their weird, obnoxious, off-putting, or rude behavior, so that behavior becomes even more entrenched.
In general, I like the idea of admonishing in private and praising in public, especially when a person may be perfectly willing and able to change a bad behavior. Shame really isn't productive, especially since it can spark defensiveness.
But, I also think we need a clearer way to deal with people in the fandom who are just plain toxic. Lots of times, I'll see people bitch and complain about a person online, and then, that person will incur zero consequences in the real world for their behavior. That sends a very confusing and unproductive mixed message.
Nerds in general tend to be socially awkward though, I don't think its entirely a fandom thing.
Yeah I don't think it's particular to furry only but I think that there's certainly particular flavors of awkward that you really see in this fandom
...also the first time I read the journal I didn't actually notice the comment you made about someone adding you as a family member on facebook. That's fucking weird. The fanfic stuff is weird too... but at least it wasn't sexual? I hope? :c
I've maybe noticed this, but I can't put my finger on it.
(I feel like I don't know quite enough about other fandoms to properly answer that, though.)
I usually explain that they are welcome to browse my web pages, but that becoming a Facebook friend, or giving out my Skype name is for people for whom I have more than an internet relationship with - and that I simply don't know them well enough. Thus far (with a couple of exceptions), it seems to work. I'm just frank, but then invite them to be a regular fan like everyone else. Either they follow the rules or they simply get ignored.
Is this what you all do?
p.s. FayV I guess by my own rules I'm just an internet friend so I won't bug ya! ;) p.s. will you please let Rio know that I just adore her fursuit for me? Thanks!! ;)
it really is stuff like "hi" "hi" "I like your suit" "thanks" and then someone announcing i'm their best friend, or making me a character in a story they're in or something. It's so personal and invasive for no reason. It's tiresome, and I don't want to just ignore people because I do like talking to new people, but it gets so tiresome say hello and immediately
P.S. how dare you, i'm not her keeper! Also she says thank you for the compliment and what is your phone number?
LoL!
Maybe time is part of the problem, that is, how we think about time in relation to the internet, or even how time works on the internet. If there's one thing that connects a lot of the less positive conversations I've had online, it's a feeling that the person to whom I'm talking is looking for something, immediately. That something can be very hard to identify, because it ranges from physical things (cyber-sex!) to metaphorical things (an ear that will listen to the hard times) to meta-physical things that I can't really describe but can most definitely feel--the heartstrings of some deeper connection, when you can practically hear the other person's words on the horizon, held just in check, just off-stage. Things happen really fast on the internet. But the friendships of greatest value to me have been those which have not only been around a long time, but which started out slowly, in not such a panicked rush, and continue without the need for constant updating. A visit, even after a while, rekindles and revivifies. I guess what I'm trying to say is, maybe the question of (in)civility in online communication is related to questions of time, what the internet does to our perceptions of time, and how those perceptions come back around to change our expectations--what we hope to find from such communication. I feel like these are more questions than answers; also I think I'm veering from the original topic! But these are just a few thoughts on the matter ^^.
I've considered it but this is more something that's been long standing for a while and just gets worse and worse the more I interact with people, which makes sense. If out of every 100 interactions you have there are 5 terrible ones, then the increase of interactions will also have an increase in terrible ones.
So it's just a question for me if I want to be so close to the fandom or if it's time to less personable.
There are others who seem to think they need loads of attention at all times, and have tried to shame me for never being available on facebook chat-- apparently they were oblivious to the fact that I set my availability to "offline" because of people like them. I find excessive socialization draining, so I guess I'd fall on the "you're a hermit" side of things, but being harangued by these people who think they're entitled to my friendship-- to the point of interacting with them more than I do with my actual best friends-- doesn't exactly make me feel comfortable coming out of my shell.