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Your Opinion on Marriage Equality/Equity
16 years ago
I know this has become a repetitive and somewhat monotonous subject matter, but for some it's an extremely passionate topic of mine and I always feel the need to put this up for discussion. I have already made up my mind as to what the situation is, although I don't know a lot of history behind the law and religious factors involved but I just don't think we should have to even bother with this issue. It's clear that there are people behind such acts as Prop 8 that make up excuses to make sure the ban on same-sex marriage is made, but if you look at the facts it becomes how obliviously transparent they are.
My point is that the institution of 'marriage' should be allowed for everyone despite race, gender, cultural difference etc. and being that it is a social union provided by the state and no longer a purely religious ceremony there is no reason why same sex couples should be denied this pact of love. I am no professor in law, but the government should make it so that marital ceremonies provided by the church or other religious places of worship will not be harassed if they so choose not to marry a same sex couple and that the church has the right to deny this as to respect their religion. It should be made that the state provide the legal contract to perform the marriage with the same rights as any other religious marital ceremony.
It's unfortunate that people often don't understand that this is the case, that they have the right to live their lives as they please and not be persecuted for their beliefs. I believe it is essential that people should know that by not allowing same sex marriage is denying people their rights based on false assumptions which is of course lead to this misunderstanding and discrimination. I also know that there are people who are just plain stupid and hate homosexuals for whatever reason, one of which I hate hearing most of all is that being gay is a 'lifestyle choice'. It is the worst phrase I have ever come across and I'm sorry but anyone who believes that is a complete dipshit.
Comments are most welcome, questions and arguments too.
-Hel
'Things To Do' List:
twile - Commission: In Progress
aphinion - Trade
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Round 4 Commissions: In Progress
1.
necrodrone13
2.
skiefire
3.
giorgio_gabriel
4.
manny
5.
xianos
6.
firondraak
Round 3 Commissions: Complete!
1. BigPhin (x2) - Completed
2. Xianos - Postponed
3. Kadath062 - Completed
4. Draggar - Completed
5. NecroDrone13 - Cancelled
Extra Commissions:
1. FironDraak - Completed
2. CrazyDragon - Completed
3. Twile - Postponed
4. Segremores (x2) - Completed
Round 2 Commissions: Complete!
1. Calibur914 - Completed
2. Aquilus - Completed
3. blackheart717x - Completed
4. Kellervo - Completed
Round 1 Trial Commissions: Complete!
1. FironDraak - Completed
2. wolfie622 - Completed
3. Raidy - Completed
--
:: ANTHROCON 2010 ::
Target: TBA
--
:: FURCON 2011 ::
Target: TBA
Thanks to everyone for the commissions!
My point is that the institution of 'marriage' should be allowed for everyone despite race, gender, cultural difference etc. and being that it is a social union provided by the state and no longer a purely religious ceremony there is no reason why same sex couples should be denied this pact of love. I am no professor in law, but the government should make it so that marital ceremonies provided by the church or other religious places of worship will not be harassed if they so choose not to marry a same sex couple and that the church has the right to deny this as to respect their religion. It should be made that the state provide the legal contract to perform the marriage with the same rights as any other religious marital ceremony.
It's unfortunate that people often don't understand that this is the case, that they have the right to live their lives as they please and not be persecuted for their beliefs. I believe it is essential that people should know that by not allowing same sex marriage is denying people their rights based on false assumptions which is of course lead to this misunderstanding and discrimination. I also know that there are people who are just plain stupid and hate homosexuals for whatever reason, one of which I hate hearing most of all is that being gay is a 'lifestyle choice'. It is the worst phrase I have ever come across and I'm sorry but anyone who believes that is a complete dipshit.
Comments are most welcome, questions and arguments too.
-Hel
'Things To Do' List:
twile - Commission: In Progress
aphinion - Trade--
Round 4 Commissions: In Progress
1.
necrodrone132.
skiefire3.
giorgio_gabriel4.
manny5.
xianos6.
firondraakRound 3 Commissions: Complete!
1. BigPhin (x2) - Completed
2. Xianos - Postponed
3. Kadath062 - Completed
4. Draggar - Completed
5. NecroDrone13 - Cancelled
Extra Commissions:
1. FironDraak - Completed
2. CrazyDragon - Completed
3. Twile - Postponed
4. Segremores (x2) - Completed
Round 2 Commissions: Complete!
1. Calibur914 - Completed
2. Aquilus - Completed
3. blackheart717x - Completed
4. Kellervo - Completed
Round 1 Trial Commissions: Complete!
1. FironDraak - Completed
2. wolfie622 - Completed
3. Raidy - Completed
--
:: ANTHROCON 2010 ::
Target: TBA
--
:: FURCON 2011 ::
Target: TBA
Thanks to everyone for the commissions!
I am a fag and I grew up around straight people.
As for gay being a lifestyle choice, Its hardly a choice, I mean sure you can choose to force your self to be unhappy and do something you don't want, but saying something natural like feelings and attraction to different sexs are not a choice. They can call it a lifestyle but not a lifestyle choice, I for one ever choice to like men, it just happened.
Straight women are okay with their gay friends getting married … so they can bitch with each other about their husbands!
ba dum tish!Everybody should have the rights and benefits
marriage has to offer, like:
- Joint parental rights of children
- Joint adoption
- Immigration and residency for partners from other countries
- Social Security
- Domestic violence protection orders (Couples which are just cohabitating are unprotected when a domestic violence act occurs)
This means, of course, that the couple will have all the responsibilities marriage has, which will make them take it seriously and give them economical and emotional stability, such as:
- Joint filing of tax returns
- Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs
- Support their children, no matter if they're divorced.
- With pensions, the most whealty person in the couple will left his ex-husband/wife abandoned at his/her own.
That's why I think that marriage should be legal for everyone, with the obvious exceptions, of course (Like little children or animals... that's just wrong).
Sorry about that typo, my mistake.
Marriage is both a religious and a legal institution. They usual coincide, but it's easy enough to have a legal marriage that's not performed by a church, and in that case there should be no distinction. Likewise, marriage as a religious act shouldn't be force churches to perform a marriage that wouldn't be recognized within the religion.
Religion does not factor into this. It is about giving benefits and rights to one group of people while denying it to another group. That is discrimination, pure and simple. In my mind, it is no different than what happened to women, blacks, the Chinese while the western US was being settled, or the Irish when they were denied jobs after coming to the US. Everyone should be allowed to enter a binding, legal agreement with the person they love in order to secure their rights as a couple; so they can visit each other in the hospital, own a house together without worrying about the other losing it after they die, to be able to inherit from each other without having to set up a lot more legal wills and contracts than a straight couple, to be able to receive their partners social security benefits if the other passes away.
Also, I agree; gay being a "lifestyle choice" is complete bullshit. To quote 2 the Ranting Gryphon, "Why would someone -chose- to be a part of one of the most persecuted and stigmatized groups in history?" I have two gay uncles which really makes me think genetics probably plays a good part in sexuality. Besides, when was the last time you heard a young boy say "You know, I think I've decided. I'm going to like girls and have sex with them"?
A quote from Thomas De Quincey read that the definition of marriage is "a union between two persons, who lived in harmony so absolute with each other, as to be independent of the world outside." It's a simple but meaningful explanation. In my opinion I don't believe you need marriage to establish your eternal love for your partner, but a lot of people do and they deserve the right to do so.
Interesting book by the way
This means that in America and other like countries, religion is a Christian bond.
Why the fuck would gay people want to be united under that?
Furthermore, asking Christians to accept gay people is like asking a Nazi to accept the blacks. It is simply not going to happen, no matter how logical or forward thinking. Stop trying, because all's you're doing is creating drama.
The law already allows for gay couples to be recognized as life partners, and as far as I know affords them all the privildges afforded to married couples (such as the tax breaks). This is marriage in all but religious background, but the gay community won't shut the hell up until they're holding hands with the Christians in happy fairy-land, which is never going to happen.
Look the point is, that marriage is a power of the church, not the government. You need a priest to marry two people. If the government allowed gay couples to marry, then the church would simply refuse to wed them. In the few states where gay marriage is allowed, gay couples have an absurdly difficult time actually finding a priest to marry them.
tl;dr: The church is not going to accept gay people, and whether you like it or not, that means marriage will never be openly available to gay couples unless there is a dramatic change of primary religion, which I heavily doubt there will be. End of story. Now shut the hell up and start asking for rights on something a sane person would actually want. Fuck. All this fuss about the most useless, contrived, expensive and damning process two adults can agree to.
As a result, there is no reason for this to be a religious matter (because it wasn't in the first place). It was effectively a legal (sometimes private, depending on the civilization) matter before, not a religious matter, and should continue to be. X religion's beliefs should have no bearing on common law marriage, which is what we're really talking about here.
Please read a law book. Even if marriage was established well before Christianity, common law was not. The law as it exists in most Western countries was developed hand in hand with religion (sadly) and as such there are a number of things that it remains hand in hand with.
To say that religion should have no hand in matters unrelated to religion is a pleasant thought but, in a country where over 70% of the population remain Christian, it's an unrealistic one.
Yes, it is true that Christianity did have a considerable influence on Western civilization as most of these countries today were once originally European colonies but my point here is to establish the pact of marriage as a separate entity from religion and to acknowledge that it can be a religious and non-religious institution, the law is there to simply protect this idea and implement it.
As I pointed out however, the LAW of marriage is not a seperate thing. In the west, marriage has only been legally binding for as long as it has been a religious ceremony, and comparing modern legal marriage to ancient marriage formalities and 'honour systems' is ridiculous.
The fact is that marriage is currently a religious ceremony, and the fact is also that religion would raise one hell of a fuss if the government attempted to change that.
Any government that attempted to change it, considering the religious views of the majority, would be absolutely, 100% guaranteed to be thrown out upon next election. The promise to reinstate it as a religious power would be pounced on instantly by the opposition, and the gay community would have their silly ceremony for a whole 4-at-the-most years before their 'right' was taken away again.
The purpose of the law is to protect the views of the majority.
Currently the majority follows Christianity.
Christianity opposes gay marriage.
Blame politics, blame the law, blame Christianity, I don't really mind, but either way that's the reality of the matter.
Every single law we have is created from a majority vote by a bunch of politicians who are elected via a majority vote. If a law is not to the majority's liking, the political party gets thrown out by, you guessed it, majority vote.
If you think the minority has any say in a democracy at all unless the majority wants them to have that say, you're kidding yourself.
Disagree? Take a basic legal studies or politics class. In a democracy, nothing happens/doesn't happen unless the majority wants it/doesn't want it to. It's the absolute basis of our politics, and through that, our law.
The church is not going to accept gay people? The church will not accept gay relationships; it accepts gay people per its creed already. It also depends on the church, but the majority of Christian denominations will agree. But even many of them would disagree with you, as would the vast majority of lawmakers, that marriage recognized by the government is solely a religious issue.
You are also factually incorrect when you say that folks who unite under civil unions or domestic partnerships or whatnot have all the legal benefits of married people -- they do not, and all of this would be far less of an issue if that was not true.
2. Some people hate others who are not like them... that's why still there are many people who despise gay, inteligent people, black people or jews or anyone who does not stick to their definition of being "normal".
3. You won't win with those who love tormenting and despising others for who they are because this is their personality... they like causing drama, they like being assholes, they love throwing shit at people... There are some guys who draw some kind of pleasure from making others suffer... and I think such people will not change.
An intolerant person can change only if that person is driven not by the pleasure of despising others but by wrong information aquired during the life. Then usually giving them right info is enough to make them tolerant... some proofs are appreciated of course :)
Mostly I just hate the idea of having to legally formalize love and commitment.. It's nobody else's business, really.
I'm actually a somewhat religious kinda guy. I know, it's wierd, cuz I'm gay but oh well. I think it's funny, cuz they say marriage is a very veeery religious kind of thing, yet why are people that don't believe in god, allowed to marry? I mean, according to pastors and crap, it's a bonding of you, yer wife/husband and god. So... Why the HECK can two satanists get married, and two god-loving queers not? Bullshit!
And they say that allowing gays would ruin what marriage is all about. Howeveeer, the statighties have a 50% divorce rate. It's not gays who would ruin marriage, it's the straight people!
And you don't even have to marry in a religious way. There are coart marriages where you just sign paper. There's no religion in it. So, if there's no god aspect, then why can't gay people get married that way? Hel. I love you. We can get married.
I loath any cultural institution holding ground in both legal and church realms, it goes against the Wall of Separation Principle and should be resolved before this debate continues. That said, if this impasse continues, the only way I see homosexual unions receiving their deserved rights is by the government completely distancing themselves from all marriage, instead offering universal "legal unions" or what not to all couples wishing to have legal rights with each other.
In my perfect ideological world, the complaints of the religious would have absolutely no say in anything that involves the government, their complaints on the issue of same-sex marriage rightfully ignored, unless the collected churches wish to begin paying unified taxes. Any couple wishing to embark on matrimony should have the right to do so, the barring of anyone from this is completely opposite to the intentions of the institution.
I loath any cultural institution holding ground in both legal and church realms, it goes against the Wall of Separation Principle and should be resolved before this debate continues. That said, if this impasse continues, the only way I see homosexual unions receiving their deserved rights is by the government completely distancing themselves from all marriage, instead offering universal "legal unions" or what not to all couples wishing to have legal rights with each other.
In my perfect ideological world, the complaints of the religious would have absolutely no say in anything that involves the government, their complaints on the issue of same-sex marriage rightfully ignored, unless the collected churches wish to begin paying unified taxes. Any couple wishing to embark on matrimony should have the right to do so, the barring of anyone from this is completely opposite to the intentions of the institution.
Thank you for your contribution by the way, much appreciated!
The current defence of prop 8 here in California is that marriage is about "responsible procreation." That's an argument that has so many holes in it that it's easy to shoot down, but it sounds better than "we don't like gay people."
These two people can get married.
But THESE two people can't.
That's the issue.
Another thing:
Religion does NOT own a copyright on the word "marriage." Period, it doesn't. Marriage as been around for FAR longer than religion has. If a church doesn't want to perform a wedding for homosexuals, hey, that's the church's choice; Fuck them, they don't have to have anything to do with it. But that should NOT stop those two people from being able to get married altogether. That's bullshit. The fact that gay people can't get married in the majority of the United States is a clear violation of the Separation of Church and State. Fuck your Defense of Marriage Act, it's bullshit. This is the prime reason why I hate America; because it's the one country that is so overrated, so loved, so looked upon, so thought of as the "most powerful" and the most "free" with all these wonderful opportunities and the perfect lifestyle, and America has everything you could ever want, but FUCK YOU, YOU CAN'T GET MARRIED!
That's a load of fucking bullshit.
And another thing: No one can tell me that gay marriage can't work. Canada has gay marriage and it's getting on JUST FINE! South Africa has gay marriage, Sweden does, the Netherlands does... every single country that has gay marriage is getting along just fine. So why can't the rest of the world follow suit?